KLR650.NET Forums - Your Kawasaki KLR650 Resource! - The Original KLR650 Forum!
Go Back   KLR650.NET Forums - Your Kawasaki KLR650 Resource! - The Original KLR650 Forum! > KLR650.NET - Kawasaki KLR650 Forums > Maintenance, Mods, & Tech
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read
Maintenance, Mods, & Tech Wrenching and mods - KLR650 Maintenance discussion only!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-10-2009, 08:52 PM   #1
hellfire76
A Regular
 
hellfire76's Avatar
 
Super Cool Since: Dec 2008
Locale: North Dirty Jersey
Postings: 73
hellfire76 is on a distinguished road
Default Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

So a lot of you guys put a lot of time and money into getting more power from your KLR engines. Why not just take out the counter balancer??? Free power gains. It takes horse power to spin it. Horse power that could be used to spin the rear wheel. How much would it increase felt vibration? I have ridden plenty of bikes that had single cylinder, four stroke, non counter balanced engines. The vibes were not that bad, of course I did grow up on iron head Sportsters.
hellfire76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 08:55 PM   #2
swamp_donkey
I dont hunt.I go killin!
Rank: Expert
 
swamp_donkey's Avatar
 
Super Cool Since: Oct 2008
Locale: georgia
Postings: 3,432
swamp_donkey is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

You try it on yours and let us know how it turns out!
__________________
Time all dogs are dead! Aint you glad you a puppy?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ecE1UML1q8
swamp_donkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
Old 02-10-2009, 08:59 PM   #3
hellfire76
A Regular
 
hellfire76's Avatar
 
Super Cool Since: Dec 2008
Locale: North Dirty Jersey
Postings: 73
hellfire76 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

No, I want some one else to find out how bad it vibrates before I try it.
hellfire76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 09:17 PM   #4
dflowers
Active Member
 
Super Cool Since: Dec 2006
Locale: Seattle
Postings: 579
dflowers is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

I'm not sure what the horsepower gain would be, but I doubt it would be dramatic. The KLR engine was designed to work with a balancer so if you took it out bad things might happen. Even balanced the KLR is pretty good at shaking stuff loose!
__________________
2002 RC51
2009 KTM 690r Enduro
dflowers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 09:19 PM   #5
Frogrider
KLR Enthusiast
 
Frogrider's Avatar
 
Super Cool Since: Sep 2008
Locale: The Backwoods of Georgia
Postings: 1,798
Frogrider is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

Quote:
Originally Posted by dflowers View Post
I'm not sure what the horsepower gain would be, but I doubt it would be dramatic. The KLR engine was designed to work with a balancer so if you took it out bad things might happen. Even balanced the KLR is pretty good at shaking stuff loose!
Amen on the vibes man!
__________________

3 KAWS in the Barn!!!
1999 KLR 250 - Teal?
2008 KLR 650 - Green
2001 Kawasaki ZG 1000 Concours - Black
"Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." Helen Keller
Frogrider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 09:26 PM   #6
jeffro74
never pet a burning dog!
Active Member
 
Super Cool Since: May 2008
Locale: piedmont,alabama
Postings: 440
jeffro74 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

i know you can feel the difference,when you adjust a doo that is out of adjustment.thhat would make me think it could be a big difference if you remove it altogether.i am al up for someone trying it if it aint me
jeffro74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 09:47 PM   #7
Kevin W
Active Member
 
Super Cool Since: Oct 2006
Locale: Central Arkansas
Postings: 384
Kevin W is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

I have thought a little about the effects of disconnecting the balancer. I don't know if it could be disconnected or if it would have to be removed altogether. With out the balancer the bike would shake more and the buzz would be reduced. The reduced buzz at speed might be a plus or maybe a minus if the wave from the torque pulse moved to a spot where it was annoying. It just looks like it might be something to try if it's not to invalved.
__________________
2012 Concours 14
2010 Honda Rancher
2007 KLR 650
Kevin W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 09:56 PM   #8
OldBaldy
Sneaky Slow
Active Member
 
OldBaldy's Avatar
 
Super Cool Since: Mar 2008
Locale: South Lyon, MI
Postings: 566
OldBaldy is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

I'd guess very little (if any) measurable power gain. The only power gain would be a very slight reduction in friction losses.

The main affect, other than increased vibration and probably some component life shortening, is the slightly reduced intertia - meaning perhaps slightly quicker throttle response....but this is generally more of a "feel" thing than an actual performance improvement. (reducing inertia does not increase horsepower in itself)

Try it and report back...
__________________
Old Baldy / WWBO #451
Ducati 996
Kawasaki KLR 650 '02
Kawasaki KLR650 '06
OldBaldy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 10:12 PM   #9
T748
 
T748's Avatar
 
Super Cool Since: Jun 2008
Locale: Vallejo, Ca.
Postings: 380
T748 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

The vibrations would make it not worth it IMO....
I changed the gears on the counter balancer system a few months ago. With just one counter balancer gear on the wrong tooth, the bike vibrated horribly! In nuetral and on the kickstand it would walk itself across the garage floor at idle. Every vibration pulse would move it about an inch forward. I didn't dare try and rev it up. -Tom.
__________________
'89 KLR 685, '05 Bandit 1200s.
How many mod's can you add to an $800 beater? I'm here to find out!
T748 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 02:45 AM   #10
Judjonzz
Rank: Expert
 
Judjonzz's Avatar
 
Super Cool Since: Jun 2003
Locale: Gone fishin'
Postings: 10,618
Judjonzz is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

Because it has a counter-balancer, the KLR probably lacks the flywheel weight of older designs. Without the balancer, I would expect it to vibrate worse than a motor designed to run without one.
Judjonzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 02:51 AM   #11
typhoon
Active Member
 
typhoon's Avatar
 
Super Cool Since: Feb 2008
Locale: Straya mate.
Postings: 340
typhoon is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

I'm thinking the crankshaft weights are pretty big, I bet the crank is responsible for primary balance.
The counterweights are probably responsible for secondary/tertiary vibrations, they spin at far less than half crank speed. The KLR flywheel is still a fairly heavy beast.
I don't think teh bottom end would immediately self destruct but there may be long term fatigue issues with crankcases, particularly in the bearing area.
I know on my bike, there are a couple of rpm ranges where there is a harmonic going on through the frame.
Don't think the counterweights are doing terribly much at idle, their mass is tiny and they don't spin that fast.

Regards, Andrew.
__________________
Get your bloody "shrimp" off my barbie!

Farkles? Yeah I got 'em!
typhoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 03:39 AM   #12
Subybaja
Transformer catscradle
Rank: Expert
 
Subybaja's Avatar
 
Super Cool Since: May 2007
Locale: Alaska 843521 rods NW of Spoonbooty
Postings: 3,150
Subybaja is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

Quote:
I changed the gears on the counter balancer system a few months ago. With just one counter balancer gear on the wrong tooth, the bike vibrated horribly! In nuetral and on the kickstand it would walk itself across the garage floor at idle. Every vibration pulse would move it about an inch forward. I didn't dare try and rev it up. -Tom.
Maybe you should have! Just think what you could save on chains with the new "Impulse Drive"!
__________________
We had part of a Slinky. But I straightened it.
Subybaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 04:10 AM   #13
XDragRacer
Rank: Expert
 
Super Cool Since: Jan 2007
Postings: 4,296
XDragRacer is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

Quote:
Originally Posted by typhoon View Post
The counterweights are probably responsible for secondary/tertiary vibrations, they spin at far less than half crank speed.
From illustrations in the Service Manual, looked to me like the crankshaft sprocket and the counterbalancer shaft sprockets are the same size; if so, I'd expect the counterbalancers to rotate at crankshaft speed. No hands-on checking; that's only the impression I got from the book.

Regardless, as Old Baldy says above, the only horsepower gain from jettisoning the counterbalancer system would result from eliminating bearing and chain friction associated with the counterbalancer operation.

Shaving the flywheel might reduce inertia without destroying dynamic balance, but--shave too much, and low-rpm operation might become a "sometimes" thing.

Last edited by XDragRacer; 02-11-2009 at 04:42 AM.
XDragRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
Old 02-11-2009, 09:50 AM   #14
jeffsaline
 
Super Cool Since: Apr 2008
Locale: Rapid City, South Dakota
Postings: 6,419
jeffsaline has a spectacular aura aboutjeffsaline has a spectacular aura about
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

Not worth the effort for the small possible horsepower gain if there really would be one.

The front balancer shaft is also used to drive the coolant pump so I suppose you'd have to machine the front shaft to remove the weight but would still need a mechanism to drive the shaft/coolant pump.

Not worth the effort for the small possible horsepower gain if there really would be one.

My take on the KLR is if you want horsepower you've got the wrong machine.

Best,

Jeff
__________________
Jeff Saline

Do Not Steal, Do Not Lie, Do Not Be Lazy

Good, Fast, Cheap - - - Pick Two

"Just because something isn't true, no reason you can't believe it." Hub McCann in Secondhand Lions
jeffsaline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 10:22 AM   #15
KLdrumR
Dig it
 
KLdrumR's Avatar
 
Super Cool Since: Apr 2007
Locale: Merrimack Valley MA
Postings: 6,089
KLdrumR is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

Great thread. Interesting.

Not much to contribute except for relatively little investment, a 685 kit increases power and reduces vibes...needless to say.
__________________
Speed King
KLdrumR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 11:15 AM   #16
electroken
 
Super Cool Since: Mar 2007
Locale: Shelton, CT
Postings: 857
electroken is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judjonzz View Post
Because it has a counter-balancer, the KLR probably lacks the flywheel weight of older designs. Without the balancer, I would expect it to vibrate worse than a motor designed to run without one.
That's what I'm thinkin'...
electroken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 01:40 PM   #17
broncobowsher
KLR Enthusiast
 
Super Cool Since: Mar 2006
Postings: 813
broncobowsher is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

The front counterweight could be removed, but you still need the chain there to spin the front shaft as it is also the waterpump shaft. So just taking it off isn't going to work. I thnik the lower rear shaft does the oil pump as well, but not that sure. Manual isn't memorized, books are at home and it is past my lunch hour right now anyway.

As far as not running the counterbalance, I have tried. Not by choice. I lose a doohicky under warranty. it's failure took out the counterbalance chain. Somehow didn't blow the case. Yes, I got lucky on that one. I had to ride it around the block to get it back to the apartment parking lot. Simply put there is now way the KLR is a ridable machine without the counterbalance system working. It shook so hard just off idle that it blurred my vision. You would be looking at structural failure of the frame and engine mounting bosses withen a few miles of riding. It shook bad. My arms were hurting after the less then quarter mile around the block. Simply put, balance shafts are needed on the KLR, they are not optional.
broncobowsher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 02:15 PM   #18
kawioops
Rank: Expert
 
kawioops's Avatar
 
Super Cool Since: Mar 2006
Locale: To hell and gone from spoonbooty!
Postings: 5,220
kawioops will become famous soon enoughkawioops will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLdrumR View Post
Great thread. Interesting.

Not much to contribute except for relatively little investment, a 685 kit increases power and reduces vibes...needless to say.
+ one. And why not for the money and time? As opposed to what may be a crap shoot that might have to be reversed. If your gonna go big, do it right.
__________________
One Cool and Froody Dude who really knows where his towel is! You Sass?
kawioops is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 07:00 PM   #19
Len P
Active Member
 
Len P's Avatar
 
Super Cool Since: Nov 2007
Locale: Hollywood, Florida
Postings: 645
Len P is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

Vibration is the loss of energy. When the weights are working properly there is less energy loss. Frictional losses are there but otherwise there is no lost horsepower from the weights. Engines are dynamically balanced for extra power, albeit very little gain.

The engine would rev up faster without them due to having less rotational mass, I just do not know if you could stand to rev it up at all.

And as mentioned earlier you still need to run the water pump somehow.

Len
__________________
'06 KLR 650 Red/Silver
Len P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 10:12 PM   #20
OldBaldy
Sneaky Slow
Active Member
 
OldBaldy's Avatar
 
Super Cool Since: Mar 2008
Locale: South Lyon, MI
Postings: 566
OldBaldy is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Remove counter balance, Free Horse Power??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Len P View Post
Vibration is the loss of energy. When the weights are working properly there is less energy loss.

Len
While I agree with your post for the most part, I'd suggest that the vibration is offset by the balancer, but that is simply because the balancer is introducing its OWN vibration in opposite phase to the crank. i.e. the crank still has the same stress and vibration within it....you simply now FEEL it directly without the countering/smoothing affect of the balancer. This implies that there is less TOTAL vibration loss of energy (crank + balancer) without the balancer, than with it.....although it sure would not feel like it!
__________________
Old Baldy / WWBO #451
Ducati 996
Kawasaki KLR 650 '02
Kawasaki KLR650 '06
OldBaldy is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright KLR650.NETAd Management by RedTyger